Curse

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 25, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

If you say the majority is using N/Rit due to ignorance that's your call.

Tank'n'spank teams are what the majority of pug's use due to ignorance. N/Rt's and Sabway in general being the dominant build among H/H'ers is a pretty similar case.

fireflyry · Sep 25, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

N/Rt's and Sabway in general being the dominant build among H/H'ers is a pretty similar case.

Since when did abusing Soul Reaping dictate ignorance?

Sabway/Discordway or any other necro H/H teams are common because they are efficient, work well and abuse near endless e-gain.N/Rits just compliment the build synergy more than a N/Mo ever will.

Problem is most of us would rather drop mobs fast than see our red bars full 24/7.

Moloch Vein · Sep 25, 2008, 11:07 AM // 11:07

The reasons that people are using N/Rt healers over N/Mo healers are quite obvious.

First of all, three out of four campaigns do not even have Rt healers, N primary or not. The Factions Rt healer bar is actually quite decent apart from the Communing spirit, which was also perfectly fine before the cruel spirit nerf.

Second, just about every monk henchman is hardcore-terrible when it comes to condition removal. (In Factions they had the great idea of outfitting Danika with Blessed Light and no energy management.) This being a very strong suit for Rt healers (and particularily N/Rt), it isn't strange that they have become very popular when H/H'ing.

The problem is that when going with a full heroway group against an area with tough resistance, the N/Rt-exclusive concept does not cut it.

N/Rt does not provide the sort of industrial-strength protection needed against mobs who _wand_ you for 80 damage a hit. Since most people after-all do not play against very challenging content, or only do so with party setups consisting of several human players, this is no issue for them. The entire team setup is a cut-down Jagged Bones pvp build, which was designed to fight level 20 monsters (well, in that case, humans.)

Summarily, while the N/Rt versions can still work fine for the healing/condition-removal part of the team setup, they must be complemented or sometimes even replaced with stronger stuff when doing things that really pose a challenge.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 25, 2008, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Since when did abusing Soul Reaping dictate ignorance?

I never said it did. It took a very long time for the majority of PvE'ers to discover how SR could be abused. Pre-nerf Spiritway was running rampant in PvP for ages long before it became popular in PvE. That just goes to show you how slow the PvE side of the game can be when it comes to builds.

One of the points I was making was how bad the repetition is when it comes to what most people run, even though there's plenty of other ways to get HM done, with some being more effective. Honestly, I'm just dissapointed how boring this part of the forum is - I didn't expect Discord/Sabway threads to be created daily with something different only popping up on a very rare occasion. At the same time, I'm also not too surprised. I'm definitely not saying Discord/Sabway are bad, because they're both good (I run Discord on my nec often)....but there's alot more builds out there.

impulsion · Sep 25, 2008, 12:09 PM // 12:09

I run N/Mo with glimmer of light + dwayna's sorrow.

fireflyry · Sep 25, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

One of the points I was making was how bad the repetition is when it comes to what most people run, even though there's plenty of other ways to get HM done, with some being more effective. Honestly, I'm just dissapointed how boring this part of the forum is - I didn't expect Discord/Sabway threads to be created daily with something different only popping up on a very rare occasion. At the same time, I'm also not too surprised. I'm definitely not saying Discord/Sabway are bad, because they're both good (I run Discord on my nec often)....but there's alot more builds out there.

Fair point man and I couldn't agree more.

I usually run a Paragon, N/E and N/Rit setup these days.

I guess the fact remains variation gets little attention here, regardless of justification.Considering the current game state of GW PvE, repeat content as quickly, efficiently and easily as possible, any builds abusing Soul Reaping will garner more attention.

Welcome to Guru I guess.

I still have to side with the N/Rit fans though.My game experience dictates my opinion.N/Mo's just aren't as effective overall and I'm not one who needs my red bar maxed at all times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Summarily, while the N/Rt versions can still work fine for the healing/condition-removal part of the team setup, they must be complemented or sometimes even replaced with stronger stuff when doing things that really pose a challenge.

Great point right there.

I think part of the issue is that people are getting to focused on singular N/Rit vs N/Mo.

Bad move.

We are talking a complete H/H setup here and the role one hero plays within the H/H synergy.The average Sab player will often grab a hench monk anyway.My setup was always the heroes + a melee, monk and 2 nukers hence I usually had a monk backing up the healing role.

I think it important to not get lost in scrimmage 1v1 type discussion which we all know has little to no merit.

DarkSpirit · Sep 25, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Summarily, while the N/Rt versions can still work fine for the healing/condition-removal part of the team setup, they must be complemented or sometimes even replaced with stronger stuff when doing things that really pose a challenge.

And Sabway does that. There are not many protection spells that heroes run well but Sabway has a N/Mo with prots.

As far as heals per energy cost is concerned, N/Rt is still superior to N/Mo. So I use N/Rt for heals and N/Mo for prots and hex removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

One of the points I was making was how bad the repetition is when it comes to what most people run, even though there's plenty of other ways to get HM done, with some being more effective. Honestly, I'm just dissapointed how boring this part of the forum is - I didn't expect Discord/Sabway threads to be created daily with something different only popping up on a very rare occasion. At the same time, I'm also not too surprised. I'm definitely not saying Discord/Sabway are bad, because they're both good (I run Discord on my nec often)....but there's alot more builds out there.

Because anything that is too different would get flamed in guru. I know that from first hand because I was the one that said Vengeance can be useful and SH Ele can be effective in HM. And I was also flamed when I posted a mesmer hero Artificer build with 80+ armor. Despite the flames, I still stand by what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Tank'n'spank teams are what the majority of pug's use due to ignorance. N/Rt's and Sabway in general being the dominant build among H/H'ers is a pretty similar case.

I have always said MoP+Fiends deals out more damage than most Tank-n-spank builds even though I had to argue this point alone against a guild (*ahem* TAM *ahem*). I had to produce a screenshot with Master of Damage.

In conclusion, it is not easy to come up with new ideas to contradict the status quo in guru.

JoeKnowMo · Sep 25, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

The majority of PvE'ers never use what's most effective - they always run what everyone else is. From my personal experience, most people were runnin pure junk before the builds were posted. The majority hasn't got any better since then. The average H/H'er really isn't that different from a typical pug. It's not a surprise that Guru's hero section is dull and repetitive.

People who visit forums aren't your typical PvE'er. The majority of those who use Sabway found it on forums and are open to tweaking it as well as incorporating new ideas into it.

I tried a WoH hybrid N/Mo sometime ago. I wasn't thrilled with the results. They had no trouble with energy, but heroes are awful with protting. When they did land SB on the right target, it was great, but for the most part it's quite random.

The N/Mo is a viable build, but it's not superior to the N/Rt. Since I usually play monk, I'd rather handle the prots and let the hero handle healing.

DarkSpirit · Sep 26, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Heal Other: 10e, 151 heal at level 12, cannot self target
Patient Spirit: 5e, heal for 102 after 2s.
Spirit Light (Rit): 5e, 156 heal, 17% sac unless spirit in earshot.

Orison of Healing: 5e, 60 heal.
Dismiss Condition: 5e, removes 1 condition, heal for 63 if target is enchanted
Mend Body and Soul (Rit): 5e, 96 heal, + remove 1 condition for each spirit within earshot.

As long as there are spirits within earshot, which can be provided especially if you have 2 or 3 spirits in the team, the N/Rt healing spells heal more for the same energy cost compared to the N/Mo. On the other hand, the monk line has good prots (although only a limited number of them are effectively used on the hero) and hex removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

make sense next time. maybe try stating things that are true, or even things that have a possibility to be true.

Making sense seems to be more and more a subjective term nowadays. People here use that alot when it comes to new information that doesn't agree with them. But even if you disagree, please refrain from name calling. I have reported many of your posts.

By the way, it is "arguing" not "arguind".

Turbobusa · Sep 26, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

OK kids time to go to bed, no story tonight.

Get a vent server and discuss that without polluting every thread on the forum, thank you.

As for N/mo instead of N/Rt, I don't know, the N/rt has big party wide heals, and there is nothing more to offer that you don't already have on another hero which carries 1-2 utility slots or a healer hench (except in prophecies maybe).

DarkSpirit · Sep 26, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

As for N/mo instead of N/Rt, I don't know, the N/rt has big party wide heals, and there is nothing more to offer that you don't already have on another hero which carries 1-2 utility slots or a healer hench (except in prophecies maybe).

Terrible suggestion. Healer hench sucks in HM and they tend to run out of energy. You would think that after all that gold he has collected Mhenlo would have saved up more than enough to at least rune himself.

Turbobusa · Sep 26, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

I only used 1 healer and 1 N/Rt, using the healer to get my prots and giving the ones that were missing to midliners.
I VQ all areas.
So no it works just fine.

I repeat, 1 N/rt, and mhenlo or jamei, or alesia. I managed to do fine by tweaking builds a bit to adapt them.

As for calling it terrible, I don't want to get into the arguments you tend to run into, but there are less "dramatic" ways of saying things, it is not a need to try to make the player you're arguing with look completly retarded.

DarkSpirit · Sep 26, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

I only used 1 healer and 1 N/Rt, using the healer to get my prots and giving the ones that were missing to midliners.
I VQ all areas.
So no it works just fine.

Then you should have communicated more clearly (read what you wrote before and ask yourself if you have expressed your point clearly), rather than saying "N/rt has big party wide heals, and there is nothing more to offer that you don't already have on another hero which carries 1-2 utility slots or a healer hench". There is a big performance difference between a N/Rt healer and Mhenlo.

If I am going H/H I usually bring a hero healer and Mhenlo too. Or I go with 2 accounts and 6 heroes (usually at least 2 healers in the party).

Turbobusa · Sep 26, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

There is a big performance difference between a N/Rt healer and Mhenlo.

Indeed, I won't deny that.

"there is nothing more to offer" ->I should have added "by going N/Mo"
Replacing the N/rt by a N/Mo means you want hex removals or prots.
But you lose strong party wide and single target heals to have skills you can usually bring on midliners with a free secondary, and that still work at low spec anyway, that's what I meant.

Painbringer · Sep 26, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Condition removal

Low cost high impact heals x3

Great Rez options

yes monks work to but rits seem to synergize

Jenn · Sep 26, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I think both are fine. The one advantage to having a n/mo is that more /mo spells are faster casting than /rt spells, which can work in your favour. Someone mentioned that /rt spells cost less energy, but with soul reaping powering the energy, that's a non-issue.

I like both, tbh. It just depends what you're doing and what you need. On many occasions the /rt has been a pain in the ass unless you spend more time microing it.

-Lotus- · Sep 26, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

rit skills only require one attribute line which is importan when you are using a secondary profession and cant rune. Monks need to hybrid (don't argue with that) and the attribute spread is going to get pretty thin on a necro primary that dosnt get monk runes.

Martin Firestorm · Sep 29, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

There's no reason you can't take 1 N/Mo and 2 N/Rits. I do that mainly so I can bring Dwayna's Sorrow.

-Lotus- · Sep 30, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

There's no reason you can't take 1 N/Mo and 2 N/Rits. I do that mainly so I can bring Dwayna's Sorrow.

we are talking about the N/Rt healer. we all know that you can pack Dwayna's Sorrow on the MM.

DarkSpirit · Sep 30, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Why settle for only 1 N/Rt healer when you can have 2? The curse necro doesn't need all the curses to be effective. I double him up as my second healer.